oblivion
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Post by oblivion on Jun 11, 2005 12:07:39 GMT -5
That's true...can't please everyone.
This episode had huge significance. The final big-screen release of a Star Wars movie. Released almost 30 years after the first one. Huge fan-base. I would have wanted to blow people's doors off with my final movie of such an amazing series.
Before seeing the movie, I had a feeling my doors weren't gonna be blown off, but I had hoped for a huge ah ha moment of "So THAT'S why he turned! That's how it happened!" Or barring that, a moment in the movie where I wanted to scream "NOOOOO! Don't do it!"
That moment never happened.
Maybe hoping for that kind of story, that kind of wrap-up, was hopelessly optimistic. After all, we're talking about George Lucas. He has some huge strengths as a filmmaker, but he also has some huge weaknesses.
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xkamelx
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Post by xkamelx on Jun 11, 2005 12:23:59 GMT -5
I liked how it was a gradual chain of events that lead to the turn.
I mean, my wife and I are divorced. Has someone told me we would divorce 7 years ago, I NEVER would have believed it. Nothing seemed farther from the truth. But alas we did divorce.
It wasn't just one major thing that split us up, it was a series of small events that happened over time that became too much for us to bear.
I believe the same with Anakin's turning. There is no one thing that can turn a Jedi to the dark side, not if he was a true Jedi.
In Anakin's case all of these events mounted up on his shoulders, and the wight was too much to carry. Love makes men blind, that on top of his disappointment, his anger, his fears, his confusion, his desire to be more then the Jedi Council would let him be, ect. ect.
It makes perfect sense to me. Palpatine played on his fears, anger and confusion. There are very few out there who cannot be manipulated when their fears, anger and confusion are played on.
I guess me point is, this was the most believable way for him to turn, as opposed to once GIANT reason, which is not realistic.
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ConqueringWolf
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Post by ConqueringWolf on Jun 11, 2005 14:48:25 GMT -5
except for at the moment he actually turned.....it seemed like a weenie moment......I still stick by my criticism that it seemed Anakin was like, "Dark side...that sounds kinda cool....I am kinda bored with being a Jedi...would being a Sith be like cooler and with less rules? I'll join up ugly old wrinkled and burned dude."
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oblivion
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Post by oblivion on Jun 11, 2005 15:52:36 GMT -5
A build-up was absolutely necessary. But, it has to build up to something -- a moment -- a scene -- a turning point of no return that the character experiences and recognizes, and that the audience feels in their guts.
The gut feel never happened. In the end, long after the hypothetical point of no return for Anakin, Vader screamed. It was too late. The energy and tension built up (though not to the extent I'd hoped), but just faded away, and like the T. S. Eliot poem said so well, the movie ended, "not with a bang, but a whimper."
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xkamelx
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Post by xkamelx on Jun 11, 2005 16:02:49 GMT -5
Here's a twist to the debate...
Those of you who did not like the way Anakin turned to the Dark Side if the Force, if you were writing the story, how would you of had him turn?
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ConqueringWolf
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Post by ConqueringWolf on Jun 11, 2005 21:05:00 GMT -5
I think once Palpatine revealed himself as a Sith lord and offered the power to Anakin to save Padme that Anakin should have been influenced right then and there to turn to the darkside....the whole thing with turning him into the jedi council and apparently rejecting the darkside all the way up to the point of Windu almost killing the emperor seemed unnecessary. It would have been good if Anakin has turned as soon as he found out he could have the power he wanted...not weenie around about it and turn him in and all that crap. It seemed anti climactic to have all that happen.
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Post by theartak on Jun 11, 2005 22:01:40 GMT -5
Oh, that's simple enough.
There's a couple of themes going throughout Anakin's descent into the dark side, and those are as follows:
him giving into his anger and fear, using the power it gives him. The first majorly noticable instance of this is in Episode II with the Tusken Raiders, and then with Dooku.
having to choose between his heart and love and what he is told to do. Again, this goes back to Episode II, where Padme falls off the troop transport.
So, now, as any writer knows, you have to have a proper climax, and union of underlying themes. Lucas tried for this, but he didn't draw off of parallels well enough. We see a gradual progression on both themes, and the parallels grow in depth each time, such as when Dooku is slain, and when Palpatine introduces more seeds of doubt concerning the visions Anakin is having and being able to save Padme.
So, everything evolves in the story until the arrest. And here is how I would have picked it up.
They start fighting, and Anakin comes rushing in. Mace pins Palpatine down, but the man, who is clearly smarter than to keep firing electricity into himself, instead calls upon Anakin to save him, who does so by bringing his lightsaber in to block Mace's, saying he must be arrested and tried. Mace, in turn, who appears to be the only Jedi I've ever seen in need of anger-management classes anyway, accuses Skywalker of interfering with what should be done because of his personal feelings, and oh, yeah, would you please get the junk out of my way so I can kill the Sith and be the hero?
Meanwhile, Palpatine summons the guards, who come in and see one Jedi defending the Chancellor from another. They open fire on Mace, who blocks the fire and takes off. Palpatine then orders the guards to go and kill the other Jedi because of their treachery, thanking Anakin for saving his life, and that it will be remembered, putting it in some cryptic way I can't come up with right now to make clear he's referring to saving Padme.
Okay, now it comes down to decision time. Anakin is right there. He turns to Palpatine, and he has a choice...kill the man and then the guards, and leaving a very big problem for the Republic, but hey, he saves the Jedi. But, he decides to go and warn the Jedi, and of course, he gets let go.
He goes to the temple, and runs into Mace, who is rather pissed, and proceeds to call ol' Ani out, and they argue about right/wrong/place of Jedi/love/etc. Anakin now really has to choose between the Jedi and his love.
The guards show up a few minutes later, and start their "Campaign O' Indiscriminate Killing." Mace, thinking Ani has sold out, attacks, and of course, Anakin defends himself. He lets his anger flow (come on...wouldn't a fight in the main chamber of the Jedi temple have been awesome between Anakin and Mace?) and after a fight, Anakin cripples Mace.
Enter the clincher. Anakin has Mace at his mercy, and Palpatine shows up, and, in his ever manipulative way, informs Anakin that there is certainly no going back now, to kill Mace, because otherwise he'll have him and Padme killed. Mace tells him not to, that a Jedi can always be redeemed. Anakin looks at him, says I believed in the order, but all you seek to do is destory the one I love or some similar line, and...off with his head.
Conversion complete, Mace is dead, and Palpatine gets a little scarred, and the rest occurs over time by the dark side coursing through him as originally indicated in all resources on Palpatine. We get our "Don't do it moment," and there is more similarity to when Luke later on doesn't strike down Vader.
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FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Jun 11, 2005 23:53:58 GMT -5
... ... You pt some time into that, didn't you? I quite like that storyline, actually. That being said, I stil think what we got was good enough as killing a Jedi means you cannot go back. So Anakin knows he has nowehere to go but to join Palpatine.
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Post by theartak on Jun 12, 2005 1:34:18 GMT -5
What can I say? I should come up with alternate storylines for a living, FL. It actually evolved from my original idea as I was writing it. Typical...it never quite makes it to the page the way I plan it...*shakes head*
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ConqueringWolf
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Post by ConqueringWolf on Jun 12, 2005 8:13:03 GMT -5
... ... You pt some time into that, didn't you? I quite like that storyline, actually. That being said, I stil think what we got was good enough as killing a Jedi means you cannot go back. So Anakin knows he has nowehere to go but to join Palpatine. But Anakin never actually killls a jedi until after he decides to turn....Palpatine is the one who kills Windu....
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pure
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Post by pure on Jun 12, 2005 8:33:24 GMT -5
well, they both do...(Anakin and Palpatine)
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xkamelx
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Post by xkamelx on Jun 12, 2005 16:55:47 GMT -5
I think once Palpatine revealed himself as a Sith lord and offered the power to Anakin to save Padme that Anakin should have been influenced right then and there to turn to the darkside....the whole thing with turning him into the jedi council and apparently rejecting the darkside all the way up to the point of Windu almost killing the emperor seemed unnecessary. It would have been good if Anakin has turned as soon as he found out he could have the power he wanted...not weenie around about it and turn him in and all that crap. It seemed anti climactic to have all that happen. But with that though, you have Anakin turning sith on the fly. In Episode III, he really had to think about what was going on, and he really had to weigh his options. Had he just turned like you suggested, even more people would be saying he turned for seemingly no reason. He would have turned soley to save Padme, leaving out the dimesions of his emotions dictating his actions, such as when he gave Mace one less hand, ect. Oh, that's simple enough. There's a couple of themes going throughout Anakin's descent into the dark side, and those are as follows: him giving into his anger and fear, using the power it gives him. The first majorly noticable instance of this is in Episode II with the Tusken Raiders, and then with Dooku. having to choose between his heart and love and what he is told to do. Again, this goes back to Episode II, where Padme falls off the troop transport. So, now, as any writer knows, you have to have a proper climax, and union of underlying themes. Lucas tried for this, but he didn't draw off of parallels well enough. We see a gradual progression on both themes, and the parallels grow in depth each time, such as when Dooku is slain, and when Palpatine introduces more seeds of doubt concerning the visions Anakin is having and being able to save Padme. So, everything evolves in the story until the arrest. And here is how I would have picked it up. They start fighting, and Anakin comes rushing in. Mace pins Palpatine down, but the man, who is clearly smarter than to keep firing electricity into himself, instead calls upon Anakin to save him, who does so by bringing his lightsaber in to block Mace's, saying he must be arrested and tried. Mace, in turn, who appears to be the only Jedi I've ever seen in need of anger-management classes anyway, accuses Skywalker of interfering with what should be done because of his personal feelings, and oh, yeah, would you please get the junk out of my way so I can kill the Sith and be the hero? Meanwhile, Palpatine summons the guards, who come in and see one Jedi defending the Chancellor from another. They open fire on Mace, who blocks the fire and takes off. Palpatine then orders the guards to go and kill the other Jedi because of their treachery, thanking Anakin for saving his life, and that it will be remembered, putting it in some cryptic way I can't come up with right now to make clear he's referring to saving Padme. Okay, now it comes down to decision time. Anakin is right there. He turns to Palpatine, and he has a choice...kill the man and then the guards, and leaving a very big problem for the Republic, but hey, he saves the Jedi. But, he decides to go and warn the Jedi, and of course, he gets let go. He goes to the temple, and runs into Mace, who is rather pissed, and proceeds to call ol' Ani out, and they argue about right/wrong/place of Jedi/love/etc. Anakin now really has to choose between the Jedi and his love. The guards show up a few minutes later, and start their "Campaign O' Indiscriminate Killing." Mace, thinking Ani has sold out, attacks, and of course, Anakin defends himself. He lets his anger flow (come on...wouldn't a fight in the main chamber of the Jedi temple have been awesome between Anakin and Mace?) and after a fight, Anakin cripples Mace. Enter the clincher. Anakin has Mace at his mercy, and Palpatine shows up, and, in his ever manipulative way, informs Anakin that there is certainly no going back now, to kill Mace, because otherwise he'll have him and Padme killed. Mace tells him not to, that a Jedi can always be redeemed. Anakin looks at him, says I believed in the order, but all you seek to do is destory the one I love or some similar line, and...off with his head. Conversion complete, Mace is dead, and Palpatine gets a little scarred, and the rest occurs over time by the dark side coursing through him as originally indicated in all resources on Palpatine. We get our "Don't do it moment," and there is more similarity to when Luke later on doesn't strike down Vader. Excellent alternative. Better then I could have done, however... In this version, it really is the Jedi's fault. Mace Windu is the one who made the mistakes, and assumed wrongly, and Anakin was reacting to his enviornment placed before him. Had this went down, there would have been very little minipulation needed from Palpatine because Mace Windu's mistakes would have been the cause. ... ... You pt some time into that, didn't you? I quite like that storyline, actually. That being said, I stil think what we got was good enough as killing a Jedi means you cannot go back. So Anakin knows he has nowehere to go but to join Palpatine. But Anakin never actually killls a jedi until after he decides to turn....Palpatine is the one who kills Windu.... But Anakin had already slaugherted Tuskain Raiders, and killed Dooku when Dooku was defensless. Those two actions alone were enough to get Anakin exiled from the Jedi. Also, despite Palpatine's ploy of submission to Windu, it was Anakin who attacked Windu and allowed a Sith Master to kill him. That is just as bad as killing a Jedi, weaking a Jedi so a known Sith lord of all people can finish him.
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ConqueringWolf
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Post by ConqueringWolf on Jun 13, 2005 8:40:02 GMT -5
Yes...but no one would have known of any 3 of those events.....the Jedi would not have held anything against him and he could have stayed a Jedi if he wished to.
I still don't buy the depth of the emotions in the scene where he turns....I felt more depth of emotion when they performed that gagging scene where Padme says "Hold me Ani like you did on Naboo" cough cough choke....
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xkamelx
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Post by xkamelx on Jun 13, 2005 13:39:50 GMT -5
Yes...but no one would have known of any 3 of those events.....the Jedi would not have held anything against him and he could have stayed a Jedi if he wished to. I still don't buy the depth of the emotions in the scene where he turns....I felt more depth of emotion when they performed that gagging scene where Padme says "Hold me Ani like you did on Naboo" cough cough choke.... It sucks to be you then. ;D
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Post by theartak on Jun 13, 2005 14:59:37 GMT -5
I don't recall Obi-wan or Yoda ever saying it was Palpatine that drove Anakin over the edge. And it wouldn't necessarily be the fault of the Jedi. Anakin made the move that put him in that position in the first place, just like he did in the current version. He thought he was doing it for the right reasons, and my version gives it more of a tragic nature. In all reality, mine just takes what Lucas did in about thirty seconds and expands it out, gives it some depth instead of the shallowness on the screen. I guarantee you a written version would have a hell of a lot of stuff going through Anakin's mind very similar to what I put into actions and arguments.
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