OmniDude
Ensign
Beware the Gold Sabers
Posts: 64
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Post by OmniDude on Oct 26, 2005 19:12:25 GMT -5
In our English class, cause im in school, whenever the announcements come on and tell us to stand and say teh pledge (you know "I pledge alligance to the Flag of the United...") this kid says "Fight the Power!" and we all stay sitting down, silent. We're protesting the pledge. Give me some feedback/suggestions.
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FantasyLover
Admiral
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Currently cleaning Wolf's toilet with a toothbrush.
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Post by FantasyLover on Oct 27, 2005 1:40:00 GMT -5
There's a few things worth protesting, but I'm not sure the Pledge is one of them.
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Peter
Lt Commander
Everything is relative...
Posts: 255
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Post by Peter on Oct 27, 2005 10:55:07 GMT -5
I don't think the Pledge is a good thing. But I live in Britain so what do I know. Anyway, saying "Fight the power" and sitting down won't do a thing. The only way to make change is to actually fight the power instead of saying you will. And it is definitely something to fight. Protesting the pledge will achieve nothing - all it is are a few words. Fair enough, words that symbolise the whole arrogant capitalist hypocritical system but in the end meaningless. The real thing to be protesting is the wage-slavery, the ownership of human labour exercised by the bouirgeois over the common man, and in particular over our comrades in poor countries who are ripped off far more shamelessly than even Marx could have predicted when he talked about the proletarians in our own lands.
So protest the Pledge, by all means, but maybe you should protest something more important. Like capitalism.
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OmniDude
Ensign
Beware the Gold Sabers
Posts: 64
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Post by OmniDude on Oct 27, 2005 15:22:22 GMT -5
Hey, I'm with ya'. Capitalism is bad. My idea of a good country would be a oligarchy-transitioned-to-democracy with an original corporate jumpoff and a semi-communist economic system.
Money is the root of all evil. Ironically, money is worth almost nothing.
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Peter
Lt Commander
Everything is relative...
Posts: 255
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Post by Peter on Oct 27, 2005 15:50:48 GMT -5
Hey, I'm with ya'. Capitalism is bad. My idea of a good country would be a oligarchy-transitioned-to-democracy with an original corporate jumpoff and a semi-communist economic system. Money is the root of all evil. Ironically, money is worth almost nothing. Hmm I'm not sure about what I think of that. But as to money being worth nothing, the actual material of money is indeed worth basically nothing. However, the capital that it represents is worth a lot in terms of buying labour, which is what matters in a capitalist society. Capital is focused in the hands of the upper sections of society, and most of the power is controlled by the bouirgeouisie, who thus control most of the labour. Human labour is embodied in the idea of the proletarian labourer, which admittedly in most of our society has been cleverly masked to appear a lot nicer. However, if you look at less developed countries you see the people ripped off in the factories and sweatshops even worse than it was for us before the social reforms that swept through the late-nineteenth and early-twentieth centuries. This is the ultimate embodiment of the failure of capitalism - we see private property concentrated in the hands of the bouirgeouisie at the expense of others. Personally I support the idea of communism, in a slightly altered form from how Marx and his peers originally envisaged it. But whatever we believe, action must be taken.
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FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Oct 27, 2005 19:50:11 GMT -5
Hey, I'm with ya'. Capitalism is bad. My idea of a good country would be a oligarchy-transitioned-to-democracy with an original corporate jumpoff and a semi-communist economic system. Money is the root of all evil. Ironically, money is worth almost nothing. You do realize that every country that has tried to do this has been a disastrous failure, right?
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Peter
Lt Commander
Everything is relative...
Posts: 255
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Post by Peter on Oct 28, 2005 6:43:09 GMT -5
Hey, I'm with ya'. Capitalism is bad. My idea of a good country would be a oligarchy-transitioned-to-democracy with an original corporate jumpoff and a semi-communist economic system. Money is the root of all evil. Ironically, money is worth almost nothing. You do realize that every country that has tried to do this has been a disastrous failure, right? You do realise that capitalism has been, and still is, a disastrous failure?
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FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Oct 28, 2005 18:14:01 GMT -5
Is that way almost every powerful, successful country is capitalistic?
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Peter
Lt Commander
Everything is relative...
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Post by Peter on Oct 30, 2005 11:46:52 GMT -5
Is that why every powerful, successful country has horrific inequalities between rich and poor and is helping to drive the world towards utter extinction?
Even China, which professes to be a communist state, doesn't follow true to Marx's ideals at all! I admit communism is hard to implement in practice, as countries like China testify. But also, your question was actually wrong in that China is probably the second most powerful and successful country and is coming towards being even more so than America. That is not a capitalist country.
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FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Oct 30, 2005 18:01:29 GMT -5
So America is bad because there is a wide difference between the rich and the poor. Yet the communist Chinese force every family to only have two children, which cause many families to murder their babies, especially if the baby is a girl. But yeah, I guess I can see why it is so bad to have social classes compared to murdering babies.
China will not be more powerful than America for a long time because they don't know how to manage their economy. As it stands, America, the UK, France, and Israel form the most powerful group in the country, and, wouldn't you know, they're all capitalists.
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Peter
Lt Commander
Everything is relative...
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Post by Peter on Oct 31, 2005 9:20:34 GMT -5
Like I say, China is not a true Communism. But if you think it won't be powerful, you are in for quite a shock,
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FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Oct 31, 2005 19:48:28 GMT -5
China is as communist as a modern government can be. In other words, they take control of all their people's lives and ruin the economy.
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Peter
Lt Commander
Everything is relative...
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Post by Peter on Nov 1, 2005 12:23:04 GMT -5
That isn't Communism. It is not about some 'government' controlling peoples lives, the government should be the people. Communism is about abolishment of private property and institution of equality. That is something worth dreaming of. I accept that my beliefs are idealist, but if only they could work the world could be so much better.
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FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Nov 1, 2005 19:47:31 GMT -5
Every communist country that has ever existed had lead to the government taking complete control of its people.
And tell me. What would the the motivation of living from day to day in a land where you can never gain more than the other guy?
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Peter
Lt Commander
Everything is relative...
Posts: 255
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Post by Peter on Nov 2, 2005 13:24:35 GMT -5
Every communist country that has ever existed had lead to the government taking complete control of its people. And tell me. What would the the motivation of living from day to day in a land where you can never gain more than the other guy? I see things from a slightly different perspective. Most of the capitalist ideology never took root in me, so when I began to question it I had a slightly fresher view of things. I ask, "What would be the motivation of living from day to day in a land where every time you gain, somebody else loses?" or "What would be the motivation of living from day to day in a land where the only thing in life is to be better than your neighbour?" With communism, it is not a case of loss of motivation because no matter how hard you work your neighbour still has the same, it is a case of pride in the community and contentment with what you have. Sure, people may work a little less hard, but as all people will be equal more work will actually get done. And it will be enjoyable work for the most part, with variation if need be. As I say, I can accept that this Marxist ideology is not likely to be put in place, or to work even if it was. But I think it is better than the prospect of a capitalist future.
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