FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Nov 2, 2005 19:51:59 GMT -5
So...capitalism works int he world, and communism doesn't work in the world, but communism is still better than capitalism?
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Nov 3, 2005 12:15:25 GMT -5
No, capitalism never works in the world and communism has the potential to work. I have done a little more thinking on the nature of social change recently and I came to the conclusion that communism has not worked in the past because it is usually the product of revolution. The problem with such an instantaneous change is that people are still ingrained with the capitalist way of thinking. So I think if society went through a gradual social reform, in terms of how people think, communism could be implemented in a logical way that would include no corruption. That is why I think communism is better than capitalism.
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FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Nov 3, 2005 22:13:34 GMT -5
Caapitalism never works? hat's why the United States, United Kingdom, and Russia are the three most powerful countries in the world?
And no, revolution isn't the reason for the 100% failure rate of communism. It's because in order for communism to work, any type of greed has to be wiped out from the human mindset, which is impossible.
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Nov 5, 2005 6:27:22 GMT -5
Well, I still think that the logical conclusion of social reform will be communism. When more people wake up to the reality of poverty, corruption and inequality it will start to be phased out until we finally reach the true potential of the human race. I hate it when people say humanity is naturally 'evil'. I look around and I do not see evil, I see people struggling to live, I see people helping each other. The human race has potential.
This has been an interesting debate, and I thank you as a worthy debater. I myself have learned quite a lot from this (that is, after all, the point of debating).
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FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Nov 5, 2005 18:22:11 GMT -5
So greed equals evil? It's greed that gets things done.
And most socialists hate communism because it gives them a bad name. Liberals aren't socialists, and socialists aren't communists.
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Nov 6, 2005 4:57:36 GMT -5
I didn't say anything about socialism, I just said that the logical conclusion of social reform is communism. But I would vote for the socialists, because they are the only serious party who are close to my ideology. About greed, its greed that destroys the environment. Its greed that creates inequality. It doesn't get things done half as well as community spirit.
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FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Nov 8, 2005 18:04:58 GMT -5
It's greed that causes improvements. The need for better things whether so you can personally rake in fthe profits or whether you want to help out society is how technology is formed. If there's no greed, everyone becomes complacent.
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Nov 9, 2005 10:58:59 GMT -5
Not so. As I have said earlier, that is just capitalist propaganda that we are fed from a young age. Without money, work is done for the community, for the satisfaction, because it is needed. You may think it would not work, but it really would.
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FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Nov 11, 2005 1:55:58 GMT -5
You haven't given me any reasons.
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Nov 11, 2005 6:50:26 GMT -5
Humans have a natural incentive to work. If they are brought up in the right way then that natural incentive grows, working brings purpose to their lives. If, however, you take away the factors of their natural incentive and creativity and replace them with external coercion and wage-slavery you only decrease their productivity.
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Nov 11, 2005 7:29:22 GMT -5
Read this quote, from The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin:
"A child free from the guilt of ownership and the burden of economic competition will grow up with the will to do what needs doing and the capacity for joy in doing it. It is useless work that darkens the heart. The delight of the nursing mother, of the scholar, of the successful hunter, of the good cook, of the skilful maker, of anyone doing needed work and doing it well, - this durable joy is perhaps the deepest source of human affection and of sociality as a whole. "
Another good quote from the same book is:
"With the myth of the State out of the way, the real mutuality and reciprocity of society and individual became clear. Sacrifice might be demanded of the individual, but never compromise: for, though only the society could give security and stability, only the individual, the person, had the power of moral choice - the power of change, the essential function of life. The Odonian society was conceived as a permanent revolution, and revolution begins in the thinking mind. "
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FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Nov 11, 2005 19:17:52 GMT -5
It's also natural human incentiv es to want to live better lives. This has been true since the beginning of humanity. Under communism, the chances of your life being any better is close to none.
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Nov 12, 2005 6:30:30 GMT -5
Only if you think of a good life in terms of possessions and capital. The true enjoyment of life is in knowing you have done good work, making friends, being part of a community. Communism does not stop you leading a better life in this terms, you can always be improving. In communist society, people can work at what they are skilled in without having the guilt of blood and injustice on their hands. When they want a change, they can request re-allocation. You may think that the less desirable jobs, such as manual labour etc, would not get done but many people would do these to appear better in their peers eyes. Many would also get satisfaction from knowing they were helping society. Or, to turn the issue on its head, looking at capitalist society why would people want to work at such jobs for such low pay?
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FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Nov 12, 2005 21:54:28 GMT -5
With all do respect, that's all a load of crap. You are failing to see what human nature is. People who have to live miserably like the lower class of every communist country has, don't care about the society that has scrwed up their lives.
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Nov 13, 2005 13:09:09 GMT -5
With all do respect, that's all a load of crap. You are failing to see what human nature is. People who have to live miserably like the lower class of every communist country has, don't care about the society that has scrwed up their lives. Well there is no class in communism. I agree that most previous communism hasn't worked but who can say that it is worse than the capitalist equivalent? Human nature is not all about greed. We have to have some faith in our race.
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