FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Nov 13, 2005 22:09:47 GMT -5
Let me repeat this for the hundredth time. No communist country has ever had success. They have all screwed the working class while the government takes everything for themselves, leading their countries to economic ruin. Almost all capitalist countries have been extremely successful, including the four most all-around powerful countries in the world, America, the United Kingdom, France, and Germany. Who is the only economically-thriving country in South America? Chile. What's unique about Chile? They're the only true capitalists in the continent. Imagine that!
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Nov 14, 2005 1:33:31 GMT -5
Cuba had success for a while. But that isn't the point, the point is that communism could work (although it hasn't yet) but in this case the means really have to justify the ends because of human nature. Revolution is not the way to go because people are still in the wrong mindset. And how many times to I have to point out that capitalism does not work and is guilty of hideous breaches of equality?
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FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Nov 15, 2005 2:13:13 GMT -5
You're contradicting yourself. You say communism hasn't worked yet, and then say it's more successful than capitalism.
So capitalism doesn't work? That's why Chileans live better lives than the people of any other South American country? That's why the average American is living a far better life than the average Cuban?
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Zarokachsti
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Post by Zarokachsti on Nov 18, 2005 1:51:29 GMT -5
I myself disagree with communism. In my view of it, you can work as a fast food cook and make the same wage as someone that went to college for four years to do something incredibly complicated, like surgeons. Yes we have poor people in America, but most of the time it is their own fault, anyone can become anything, go to school, get good grades and you can go anywhere. With communism I find that people would probably just give up doing something so complicated, why would they want to spend an extra four years in college to still only make something like five dollars and hour. The fast food cooks can still go somewhere in America, they can go to some tech school and find a better carreer, they may not be rich, but they will live a wealthy life. Communism can also start rebellions, people go into high paying jobs to get the best of the best, not worry about anything, then you put communism into the picture and there is no point to the high paying jobs, ya you need doctors, but how many will become one now? Who will take the job of discovering new cures? So really communism just screws up the entire community.
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Nov 18, 2005 15:00:37 GMT -5
Oh none of you understand communism! You say communism doesn't work; I believe in communism precisely because it can and will work. My real beliefs are closer to anarchist but I know that anarchy does not work due to human nature and other factors. Most of the time it is not the fault of the 'poor people' that they are poor, it is the fault of the system and their birth. In some cases it is because people didn't bother working hard (which again is a direct consequence of society). I am not going to carry on repeating the same points I have made to FantasyLover so I won't bother, read backwards if you want to see my arguments.
The one thing you don't seem to understand is the nature of human labour - labour is labour no matter how many qualifications you have or how much you are paid. People will work because of human nature's natural incentive and creativity when it comes to work. People enjoy a good job well done! All you capitalists may think that the only incentive is to get a 'better' job and get more pay but that is not so. Personally I cannot understand why people work merely for money and such (though even I have to work to make money, there is no joy in such coercion for me). True joy comes from the satisfaction of a job. Even if you may think a job is rubbish, many will be happy to do it merely because it needs to be done.
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Zarokachsti
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Post by Zarokachsti on Nov 18, 2005 19:53:11 GMT -5
My whole family goes to work everyday gets not much money. So we have been trying to go somewhere life, its hard at this point, but it can be done. So instead of having no money and not be able to do things, we have a chance to change that. Though with communism you cant, you are stuck making a low amount of money, no matter how smart, or how hard working you are. And yes I have read the whole argument, because I wouldnt participate unless I had. Communism is a bunch of crap, and always will be, it will never work, they have tried it many societies and they had and still do have rebellions, poverty and other bad things. Look at the people in America though, we are able to live good lives, because the government doesnt control how much money we can possibly make.
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Nov 19, 2005 7:02:28 GMT -5
Money! Why do you all think of money right away? Why do you always think that you would be poor in communism? In perfect communism there is no notion of poverty or money, there is community. People have all they need. There is no need for the endless, painful march to the top of the mountain only to discover another peak to climb. I think that capitalism is a bunch of crap and will never work. All we see today is laissez-faire on a grander scale. Poverty is all around us; it pervades our society like a virus penetrating host cells, and the cause of the virus is the excess that a tenth of the population 'enjoy'. To quote Ursula Le Guin, "Excess is excrement. Excrement kept inside the body is poison." Why should the majority people have to put up with less than enough to sustain the self-destructive extravagance of the minority?
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Zarokachsti
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Post by Zarokachsti on Nov 19, 2005 14:09:06 GMT -5
In the Soviet Union at the time when it was completely communism, which it is almost not anymore. But when it was, there were docotors, construction workers, lawyers, and others waiting in line for damn toilet paper. Everyone could hardly get enough food for their family cause hardly had enough money. I really dont want to live like that, I find the way we live now is perfect, we have choices, and we dont have to stand in line of hundreds of people for toilet paper. I dont understand people like you, that think communism is so great, you think its great? Look at China, one of the biggest countries in the entire world, yet they are also the most screwed up of all the countries, they are in extreme poverty almost all over. They have rebellions almost every day, they kill their own kids to have a boy, I know fanastylover already said this, but I feel I should say it again. Communism screws up everyones life, it has never worked, and never will, get over it. You say Capatilism doesnt work, bull crap, it is working in America right now, ya we have poverty, but the government didnt put them there, their own choices put them there. So screw communism, it is just a bunch of crap.
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Nov 20, 2005 4:33:23 GMT -5
These myths will persist until the end of time I fear. It fills me with a great sadness that people believe this rubbish. What are choices? The fact is that simply by virtue of your birth you are separated into rich and poor. That is fact. Recently it has been observed that in one area of Glasgow a 15 year old boy has a 50% chance of making it to 65. A few miles away in a different area the chance is 95%. Did the boy choose to be born where he was? Choice is merely an illusion to veil the inevitability of circumstance, though whether you believe that or not is subjective. Nonetheless, there is inequality. Such splits are happening increasingly as the decadent capitalist machine gains power and decays.
Another point, communism wouldn't screw things up for everyone. There is, as Ghandi said, enough in this world for every man's need but not enough for one man's greed. We can observe this in the way we in the West have surplus. Farmers are often paid to not grow food. A working communism that encompassed the world would have enough resources for a good standard of living for all.
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Zarokachsti
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Post by Zarokachsti on Nov 20, 2005 14:16:42 GMT -5
Of couse you cant choose your chances of living longer, or where you were born, but you sure as hell can choose your career, and how much you can get payed bying doing well in school. One reason why communism cant work, is because it is impossible to change the minds of six and a half billion people, people will always have greed in them, so that is the main reason why it will not work.
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FantasyLover
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Post by FantasyLover on Nov 20, 2005 18:19:33 GMT -5
The whole point of capitalism is that if you work hard enough you can move up the social ladder. It's you peter, that are thinking in myths.
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Zarokachsti
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Post by Zarokachsti on Nov 21, 2005 2:47:54 GMT -5
I agree fully with FantasyLover.
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Nov 21, 2005 13:05:59 GMT -5
I don't. That may be the point of capitalism but the reality of capitalism is that it is built upon injustice. The only kind of capitalism that I would call 'morally sound' (whatever that may mean) is one in which there is no inheritance. But that is unlikely to happen. Basically, on an individual level yes many people can move up the social ladder. However, when we look at the statistics we see that only a tiny proportion of people actually do. Besides this, someone denied education, working in an underpaid and exploitative job has little opportunity to move up any social ladders. I know so many people who work damn hard but are still barely making a living, while I see others who do hardly any work and reap the benefits of inheritance and luck. That is not just.
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Tobbles
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Post by Tobbles on Nov 21, 2005 13:07:05 GMT -5
The whole point of capitalism is that if you work hard enough you can move up the social ladder. It's you peter, that are thinking in myths. Although that is the point it is not necessarily correct. I agree 100% with Peter's comment above. People who get least payed are the hardest workers becuase there doing labour which is hard work.
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Zarokachsti
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Post by Zarokachsti on Nov 21, 2005 13:12:45 GMT -5
Peter I dont think you get it, you said it yourself, they deny a good education, upon taking the good education you CAN and most likely will go somewhere in life. In Communism there is no climbing, you are at the bottom your whole life, and there is not a damn thing you can do about, so if you were starving because your income wasnt cutting it, you couldnt try to better your life, because the government doesnt permit. That is how Communism works, if you say it so good, take a look at all of the Communist countries, how well are they doing, huh?
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